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penumbra
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Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| [edit- initial 404 seems to have been an lj server error. sorry for this non-reply, can't delete.]
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dirtywhiteboi
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Joined: 05 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| suburbanpie wrote: | | dirtywhiteboi wrote: | http://community.livejournal.com/ftmvanity/1167490.html?#cutid1
dirt
NRLFF |
13 months on T - 14 months post op? why does that math seem odd to me?
P.S. whats with all the cartoon and sci-fi stuff in the avitars etc - seems like a curious correlation in the 20 something gender confused? |
1) the ME will not mutilate breast while on T. So many ftM women will choose to have the "surgery" first.
2) think anime girl, its all the rage now. Find an anime character you ID with then co-opt that ID to the point of trannification.
dirt
NRLFF
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penumbra
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Wildwomyn
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 811
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:15 am Post subject: |
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This "transformation" will never stop rapists, regardless of whether they think they have a "gender disorder." Rape is a crime about power and abuse, not sex. And apparently in the 2 cases cited above, the focus of these 2 individuals is women, so they will continue to assault women, regardless if they "transition."
Great, let they roam at well among populations of women, especially confined women. More fish crowded into a barrel.
This is going to come back and bite Canada and its policies toward prisoners in the ass. They won't know where to house these prisoners, if they are legally women, but they prey on women, they are putting lots of women in danger. And once they have surgery, they can't go back to a men's prison.
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Gynophile
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Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 757
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | "I was a female trapped inside a male's body," Taylor told the Sun. "I started acting out in ways that I thought a male was supposed to act ... my head was in a spin back then." - Shauna Taylor - violent rapist |
| Quote: | | .... supposed to act |
Supposed to act is the crux of every discussion about transgenderism.
Gender performance/suppose to act - IS - the basis of every gender construct on the planet. It's a total and complete contrivance - a LIE - a mass pathology.
Suppose to act is not organic to human beings it's a form of social control no different than racism.
RACISM = suppose to act based on skin color
GENDERISM = suppose to act based on genitalia (bio sex)
To speak in terms of butches being soft, hard or anything in between, IS STILL a version of suppose to act.
To speak of femmes as high, low or anything in between, IS STILL a version of suppose to act.
To speak of M2F - OR - F2M as transgendered because they cosmetically alter their genitals, IS a version of suppose to act -- taken to an extreme.
Suppose to act is in our heads, not our bodies. Genitals don't dictate behavior, social constructs do.
Gender constructs cannot be surgically corrected. They can only be changed politically and socially.
None of which is to say that there isn't paraphilias, BID, trauma, sexual abuse, erotic target location errors, etc. involved with TGSism - there is.... It's to say, that in each and every case, regardless of the etiology of a particular expression of TGSism, the act of body modification and gender performance is cathectic. Transgenderism is a form of cathexis.....
Cathex is the investment of [psychic energy] and emotional significance in an activity, object, or idea.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cathexis
*** When an item of consciousness is cathected, that selection is understood to result as the conjunction two neuro-psychological systems - that of feeling and memory....
....[W]e are born into a world that is an unlabeled place to which we adopt by creating categories. This categorizing of experience, a basic function of the mind, is another way of describing memory. A fundamental function of memory is the detection of novelty, the detection of similarity and differences within the ever-changing flood of perceptions from inside the body and from the outer world. Edelman describes memory as "the enhanced ability to categorize associatively." If categorization is a basic function of memory, this would mean that our salient experiences form potential memorial categories. [i.e. as in our introjected understanding of female and male, and the gender roles assigned to same.]
.....Affect categories, are largely relational, the unconscious residues of both pleasurable and painful experiences with others.... One's imagination cannot operate without metaphor [gender constructs are a form of metaphor] but in the case of trauma, metaphor becomes fixed, constricted and frozen, which severely limits the freedom of the imagination.... [In other words, one can become fixated on the idea that they are male or female because of trauma - whether that trauma is remembered or not.]
http://www.psychomedia.it/rapaport-klein/modell02.htm
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suburbanpie
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Joined: 21 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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Gyno - your last post reminded me of this quote from an article I just read.
"These studies [research subsequent to Unger's hypothesis of subject variables and stimulus variables] have revealed that sex labels can be manipulated in such a way that they unfailingly produce self-fulfilling prophecies."
On the Necessity of Distinguishing Between Sex and Gender
http://fap.sagepub.com/cgi/content/refs/17/4/447
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dirtywhiteboi
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Gynophile
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Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 757
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| suburbanpie wrote: | Gyno - your last post reminded me of this quote from an article I just read.
"These studies [research subsequent to Unger's hypothesis of subject variables and stimulus variables] have revealed that sex labels can be manipulated in such a way that they unfailingly produce self-fulfilling prophecies."
On the Necessity of Distinguishing Between Sex and Gender
http://fap.sagepub.com/cgi/content/refs/17/4/447 |
Well, you're gonna give my French a work out, Boo. But that book looks real interesting.
This other link to that book seems to be in English for those who don't do French.
http://fap.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/17/4/447
On the Necessity of Distinguishing Between Sex and Gender
Marie-France Pichevin and Marie-Claude Hurtig
EXCERPTED
Unger stressed the lack of a direct link between biology and psychology to promote the idea of a chain of cognitive, cultural and social mediations in interaction, which take effect as soon as a person is assigned one sex category or the other. This perspective gives the distinction between sex and gender its full meaning. Unger proposed using the term ‘gender’ to refer to the non-physiological components of the two sexes that are culturally perceived as appropriate for individuals of each sex, with gender identity referring to the characteristics that individuals develop and internalize in response to the stimulus functions of the sex they were assigned at birth.
Regarding the conceptual specificity of sex and gender, the distinction has gradually lost its heuristic value because of the simple substitution of the word ‘gender’ for the word ‘sex’.... Why this drift? In an article published in Sex Roles, Prysgoda and Chrisler (2000) put the blame on researchers who have failed to clearly explain their choice of terms, to the point that some have even ended up speaking of the ‘gender’ of rats! [LOL, must be queer theorists.]
In conclusion, we argue for retaining the distinction between sex and gender.... The relevance of the sex/gender distinction has been clearly reaffirmed by numerous female researchers, in several disciplines. Abandoning the term sex: and retaining only gender amounts to throwing away the heuristic value of the distinction between analysis at the social level – that is, at the level of social sex categories – and analysis at the individual level [. . .] Also lost is the heuristic value of the distinction between analysing social, political, and cultural constructs related to groups (here, the two sexes) and analysing the constructs of individual identity.
[It's reassuring to see that scholars haven't lost sight of the distinctions between sex and gender even if many of the proletariat have by buying into Queer theory.]
http://fap.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/17/4/447
| dirtywhiteboi wrote: | http://community.livejournal.com/ftmvanity/1169366.html#cutid1
dirt |
I love that you posted this link.... It proves how totally subjective these judgment calls are regarding presentation. This looks like a girl to me. A pretty typical "baby dyke". Of course, the people in ther tranny LJ community are gonna say otherwies and tell her what she wants to hear.
Even she says: "Not even sure I'm trans. I know I'm definitely not female though. Nothing about me ever has been...."
That's just absolute nonsense. Why then the need to cut her hair shorter? What does this young, inexperienced kid even know about identity except for what she's read on the internet. God help us and spare the children.....
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suburbanpie
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Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 75
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Gynophile wrote: |
Well, you're gonna give my French a work out, Boo. But that book looks real interesting.
This other link to that book seems to be in English for those who don't do French.
http://fap.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/17/4/447.... |
Vous êtes accoutumé à la traduction de mes pensées folles. Non?
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suburbanpie
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Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 75
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| dirtywhiteboi wrote: | http://community.livejournal.com/ftmvanity/1169366.html#cutid1
dirt |
She looks like every teen something baby-dyke I have ever known. Why are so many baby-dykes confusing not traditional chick with meaning must be boy?
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Preciocilla
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Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 323
Location: Jersey City, NJ
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: Thank Queer Theory |
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| suburbanpie wrote: | | She looks like every teen something baby-dyke I have ever known. Why are so many baby-dykes confusing not traditional chick with meaning must be boy? |
Suburbanpie,
I blame all of this insanity on queer theorists and the backlash against lesbian feminism/feminism in general. Sometimes this kind of thing enrages me and other times, like now, I just laugh because it is all so stupid. This kid needs an older lesbian mentor in her life to introduce her to dyke politics and analysis (BTW, she does not pass!).
Have a nice week,
Preciocilla
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Gynophile
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Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 757
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| suburbanpie wrote: | | Gynophile wrote: |
Well, you're gonna give my French a work out, Boo. But that book looks real interesting.
This other link to that book seems to be in English for those who don't do French.
http://fap.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/17/4/447.... |
Vous êtes accoutumé à la traduction de mes pensées folles. Non? |
Tu es un livre ouvert mon cher.
| suburbanpie wrote: | | She looks like every teen something baby-dyke I have ever known. Why are so many baby-dykes confusing not traditional chick with meaning must be boy? |
Because there is no alternative discourse - it's trans propaganda 24/7, especially on the internet.
When you think about it, it's just substituting one binary gender construct for another. An easy thing for already binary-thinking people to get their brain around.
Plus - and I think this is central - it places the "problem" solely in the child's body, and in a way that can be medicalized. The child's body is the problem - not the child or the parents. Being "born in the wrong body" lets everyone off the "hook" -- it's a mistake of nature, not nurture. It spares parents the angst of asking themselves: What did I do wrong?.... Which is never the right question, but one almost every parent asks themselves when they find out their child is lesbian/gay.
The kid gets to be a "patient" instead of a "sinner" or "sexual deviant". So that works.
Which is not to say that it goes that way in all, or even most, families.... I'm simply defining the best possible outcome. And that's bad enough.
Also, most people don't know the difference between gender and sex any more. They say they do - they don't.
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fisherwoman
Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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I must state my bone fides. I am a butch woman, a leather dyke, a lover of femmes, an aunt, an uncle, a great aunt, a friend, a Syr.....a _____. You can attach whatever current idea or label about how I walk in the world. My walk in the world is varied.
I do question this seeming fad of breast reconstruction and hormone therapy that seems to denounce female/women.
Do you wish to deny me 'women's space' because in my powered up leather Dom/Top space it feels a completely male space?
As an old fucker....that would be an elder who asks questions.....
We are living in a world of change. Our President enforces that concept. Gender is fluid because it is a construct of the time one lives in. Sex and sexuality are fluid. Life is fluid.
I do have a question for those radical feminists. What is your opinion of leather and consensual BDSM?.
What I do know as an elder is this: My view of the world and gender is not the same as the view of those who are in their 20's. Why is it my place to question the shift in gender identity and body modification? I don't get chopping tits. Guess what..my view of lesbian/dyke/kink/gender really has no place in the world today. I am the past. They are the future.
It's damn hard to face up to the world as it exists today vs what I experienced as a 18 year old.
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Gynophile
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Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 757
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| fisherwoman wrote: | | I must state my bone fides. I am a butch woman, a leather dyke, a lover of femmes, an aunt, an uncle, a great aunt, a friend, a Syr.....a _____. You can attach whatever current idea or label about how I walk in the world. My walk in the world is varied. |
I don't do labels anymore. They no longer have meaning; meaning been drained off and flushed away.
Gender constructs need to be obliterated - not mimicked and reconstructed to fit pop culture.
I will not allow myself to be labeled by anyone.
| fisherwoman wrote: | | I do question this seeming fad of breast reconstruction and hormone therapy that seems to denounce female/women. |
It's exactly that, a fad - a type of conformity.. Albeit a sad one.
| fisherwoman wrote: | | Do you wish to deny me 'women's space' because in my powered up leather Dom/Top space it feels a completely male space? |
I don't see "powered up leather Dom/Tops" as "male". You/they are just a certain kind of a woman. Women can be just as powerful as males - often more powerful.
I reject the notion that any woman has to be compared up and against male/masculine, ever. Anything a female does IS female - not some replica of male/masculine. How small minded and unimaginative, not to mention sexist, to think that behavior and or clothing is gendered. By that logic, my 10 year old becomes a lesbian when she wears a rainbow T-shirt. How silly.
| fisherwoman wrote: | | As an old fucker....that would be an elder who asks questions..... |
I'm a younger fucker (35). I think older women are hot.
| fisherwoman wrote: | | We are living in a world of change. Our President enforces that concept. Gender is fluid because it is a construct of the time one lives in. Sex and sexuality are fluid. Life is fluid. |
Fluidity is good.... Draining the meaning and essence out of "women" and "lesbian is bad.
TG used to mean fluidity - a bi-directional ever flowing movement between femme and butch, sometimes simultaneously, never settling on one or the other.... Now, that the term has been co-opted by the queer "theorists". It's become uni-directional, a linear movement away from female towards maleness.
| fisherwoman wrote: | | I do have a question for those radical feminists. What is your opinion of leather and consensual BDSM? |
I can only speak for myself. Whatever two or more consulting adults do, is their business. We are not the RadFems of prior days.
| fisherwoman wrote: | | What I do know as an elder is this: My view of the world and gender is not the same as the view of those who are in their 20's. Why is it my place to question the shift in gender identity and body modification? I don't get chopping tits. Guess what..my view of lesbian/dyke/kink/gender really has no place in the world today. I am the past. They are the future. |
They are not my "future" nor my "present". It's EVERY lesbian's OBLIGATION to question it..... If this IS a "community", things SHOULD be questioned, not swallowed whole or mindlessly.
I think you may be selling yourself way too short. You live, you breathe, you think.... Younger women like me look to you as our herstorians and our mentors. Don't bail on us yet.
| fisherwoman wrote: | | It's damn hard to face up to the world as it exists today vs what I experienced as a 18 year old. |
Don't judge the real world by what goes on, online. There are still enclaves of lesbian women who don't buy into all the TG/trans nonsense. Though, I have to say they are more abundant in WOC communities.
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Preciocilla
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Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 323
Location: Jersey City, NJ
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| fisherwoman wrote: | I must state my bone fides. I am a butch woman, a leather dyke, a lover of femmes, an aunt, an uncle, a great aunt, a friend, a Syr.....a _____. You can attach whatever current idea or label about how I walk in the world. My walk in the world is varied. I do question this seeming fad of breast reconstruction and hormone therapy that seems to denounce female/women. Do you wish to deny me 'women's space' because in my powered up leather Dom/Top space it feels a completely male space?
As an old fucker....that would be an elder who asks questions.....We are living in a world of change. Our President enforces that concept. Gender is fluid because it is a construct of the time one lives in. Sex and sexuality are fluid. Life is fluid. I do have a question for those radical feminists. What is your opinion of leather and consensual BDSM?.
What I do know as an elder is this: My view of the world and gender is not the same as the view of those who are in their 20's. Why is it my place to question the shift in gender identity and body modification? I don't get chopping tits. Guess what..my view of lesbian/dyke/kink/gender really has no place in the world today. I am the past. They are the future.
It's damn hard to face up to the world as it exists today vs what I experienced as a 18 year old. |
Hi Fisherwoman,
As a femme, I deeply respect your opinion as a butch woman; as a younger lesbian feminist(early 30s), I respect you as an elder. I appreciate your perspective and feelings and welcome you to the discussion.
Many of my peers, people who I grew up with in the B-F dynamic, are making these drastic choices (I have an ex who transitioned). I try not to impose my world view or beliefs on people....even though I really don't understand the desire to be male or mutilate one's body. However, the issue is this genderqueer or transgender stuff among butches, like you mentioned, really devalues female bodies and "female characteristics."
My problem with all of this gender warriorship stuff is that people are regressing back to very black and white ideas about what it means to be male or female. Am I not a female or a woman because many of my characteristics are more "male" than female? Who gets to decide what is a male or female characteristic? If a man possess a sterotypically female trait, it becomes a male trait because he, as a man, is having that experience. NO?
Lastly, are you male in TOP/DOM spaces or are you butch? Personally, I would say that what you are describing is the beautiful ability of butch women to possess power that only men once held. Your "dominance" is female/butch power.... it is the mark of a strong, butch woman. I reject the notion that the space you described is male....men wish that they could poess a fraction of that power.
Please, resist the knee jerk reaction of the masses to jump on the bandwagon.
Hugs,
Preciocilla
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